Black Market Leadership

In this episode of Biz Bites brought to you by CommTogether, host engages in a compelling discussion with Kevin Black, a former U.S. Army officer turned leadership consultant and author. Kevin introduces the concept of ‘chaos-style leadership,’ emphasizing the necessity of preparing for unpredictable situations. He shares insights from his military background and explains how he transitioned to a civilian career, helping companies, including major clients like LifeLock, navigate through chaos using military-inspired strategies and computer war games. Kevin also previews his forthcoming book ‘Strength in Chaos,’ which is the first to measure chaos at the leader-team level. The discussion covers the importance of control in leadership, how to influence and actualize a vision, and the challenges of maintaining team cohesion in turbulent times. The episode ends with practical tips for small and medium business owners and an invitation to explore more about Kevin’s work on his website.

00:00 Introduction to Biz Bites

00:53 Meet Kevin Black: From Army Officer to Leadership Expert

02:06 The Concept of Chaos Leadership

02:32 Writing ‘Strength in Chaos’

04:19 Defining Leadership and Its Challenges

06:53 Military Insights on Leadership

10:55 The Importance of Vision in Leadership

17:14 Mastering the Uncontrollable

21:17 Navigating Uncontrollable Factors in Business

21:31 AI and Automation: Balancing Control and Flexibility

23:12 Historical Insights: German vs. American Military Strategies

26:20 Leadership Styles and Political Parallels

30:51 Kevin’s Journey and Business Philosophy

34:31 Chaos Measurement and Business Strategy

35:09 The Importance of Team Dynamics in Business

37:23 Final Thoughts and Future Discussions

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Anthony: Welcome to Biz Bites brought to you by CommTogether, helping businesses like yours build their brand through telling amazing stories to engage and grow audiences on multiple platforms. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Biz Bites. And my guest today is going to talk us through the whole concept of leadership, but not just leadership in its ordinary sense.

He’s going to talk through the whole idea of Of chaos style leadership. And I think that is, uh, you know, an extraordinary topic to be talking about his, uh, his website, black market leadership. And of course we always include the links later on has been a huge source of, uh, of an interesting community.

And we’re going to delve into that as well, as well as his new book that we’re going to, uh, preview because it’s coming out very, very soon. So firstly, I’d like to introduce Kevin Black to the program. Welcome. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Look, I want to, I’ve given you a little bit of an introduction there, but that’s just a little bit of a resume tease.

So give me a bit more of what, how, how do you like to introduce yourself?

[00:01:11] Kevin: Uh, I introduce myself. I’m a U. S. Veteran Army, Army officer who one day read Ayn Rand and decided to do something productive with my life. So I left the Army. I was a professional soldier. You’ll laugh after 10 years of uniform, 4 in the military school and 6 active duty.

I had this epiphany and that was, uh, I never liked taking orders from people. So I’m a slow learner and I said, you know what, I want to work, I want to work for myself. And what I do, uh, gosh, since 2005, is I work with companies, hopefully growth, usually growth companies. My biggest client was LifeLock when they were about 200 million and went to a billion.

I work with them and I usually work with the C suite. I put, I take executives, I put them through computer war gaming, like a military staff. I teach them strategy, leadership, communication on the go. And I also vet some of their executives. And, uh, I’ve been very fortunate to, uh, have, it’s a very, very fun career.

And the one thing that I have realized. 25 years of working in the civilian world and military is that people are rarely, rarely ever prepare for chaos. So I know you and I were talking earlier. I started my book seven years ago. It went through three, uh, two, two major transitions because I thought I knew I was writing.

I’m like, no, no. And suddenly I’m like, God, this is chaos. I’m like, Oh. Oh, oh, it struck me. So, uh, I, I, but for five years I was writing it, writing it, and I finally got serious. So I took a year and a half off. Uh, literally took a year and a half, no clients, and I went every day to the office. Well, Every day, but I didn’t write every day, but I did my best to get this book out and to my research This is the first book believe it or not.

This is the first book to measure chaos at the leader team level So I am extraordinarily excited to get this thing out and it’s called strength in chaos

[00:03:04] Anthony: I, um, there’s so much to unpack there and, uh, I want to delve a little bit more into your background in a moment, but, but firstly, just this whole idea of, of, I mean, that’s the start of the title strength in chaos, right?

So, um, where does this idea of that actually being a part of leadership. I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard chaos theory and the idea of, of chaos being around is as old as time, but the idea of, um, of strengthening that and, and leadership coming from that. Talk to me about how that concept comes about.

[00:03:39] Kevin: How does it come about?

Um, I would tell you, in all my years, you know, going through different, different leadership programs, you know, no one ever tells you, hey, the people in your group are probably going to overthrow you if you don’t show strength, if you don’t exert yourself. And by the way, if you exert too much strength, you’re gonna cause crisis and chaos on your own, on your, uh, on your own people.

You know, you always learn to make a plan and to drive it forward. What people aren’t prepared for is that plan is going to fail. It’s going to or it’s going to be major cracks and you got to overcome it. You have to be adaptable and make up as you go. Some people like myself. Hey, I love that. I can do that, but that’s not important.

What’s important is the team. Who are you working with? So in my experience, most leadership programs don’t even talk about this because it suggests failure. But the fact is. Chaos is inevitable. It is absolutely inevitable because the fact that we could think beyond the moment, that we could plan for the future, and the fact that we have to deal with this nasty thing called reality that has gaps in, you know, in our expectations.

We think it’s going to take an hour to get to work, but it takes two hours. Why? Cops, uh, you know, inclement weather, a UFO, something distracts us. It takes us off course. This is history. This is all history. And why are people shocked that, uh, you know, that this really should be a part of leadership development?

It’s not just follow me and influencing. It’s about overcoming crisis. People are going to pull their hair out. They’re going to try to take you over, take your position. They’re going to try to challenge your authority if you don’t maintain control. And the one thing that I have realized And I think, I think it’s deeply unpopular, but I think it’s absolutely true.

Control is a necessary, essential element of leadership. You have to control your team, and if you don’t control your team, you’re fired. But the question is, how do you do that? And what I have discovered is, if leadership’s about control, people are, are, are largely uncontrollable. You got to influence them.

Hopefully they’re going to do what you want them to do. So the question is how? So these thoughts, these ideas have been percolating for, you know, over two decades. And then one day I just sat down and started writing it, uh, and writing it all down. And, uh, I created a roadmap of, uh, how it, what it looks like, uh, how to really, how to pinpoint where your team is in chaos.

How to, uh, anticipate, predict what’s going to happen once you’re at that point, and how to redevelop, redevelop teams to overcome it, to gain strength. And when I say strength in chaos, what I’m really saying is exceeding expectations when the, uh, when the odds are against you, when uncertainty is surrounding you, where most people fail.

That’s what a real strong team is. It’s not It’s not this inverted morality where strength is enduring pain. It’s about taking reality and making something, you know, going around, uh, the obstacles, going over the obstacles, making sure the team does it in an effective, efficient way, over, uh, over, over and over repeating success.

That’s what strength is, uh, in my view. So it’s even, I’m bringing a different viewpoint of strength, if that makes sense. It’s not about surviving or enduring, it’s about thriving. But that means doing the hard stuff and learning about what it takes to lead a team when things don’t go to plan, always go according to plan, which they rarely do.

I mean, does a

[00:06:53] Anthony: lot of that come from the military background? I mean, because if we, you know, the truth is that as organized as the military can be, it is still chaos when you actually get onto a battlefield. You know, there’s, it never goes exactly according to plan. Uh, and somehow I gather also, you know, I, I, I haven’t been in the military, but, you know, having spoken to, uh, many veterans over the years, That there is that you do have to find that strength, don’t you?

Because it’s not just strength on the battlefield itself. It’s to thrive beyond the battlefield, which is an interesting one. And we’ll talk about some previous guests that I’ve had that are thriving as a result, but there are many that aren’t, of course. So is that where this, is that where some of this idea is embedded in?

[00:07:40] Kevin: Absolutely. Uh, you know, uh, there’s probably 150 years of business history in terms of management theory, business books. There’s over 2000 years of military history. And I think it was the German, it was the, um, the Prussian, it was the Prussian General Von Moltke who said, uh, I’m paraphrasing, he’s like, uh, once That’s The first shot is fired, the plane goes out the window.

So armies have always, always, good, good armies, good leaders have always recognized that plans rarely ever go to court a plan. And in fact, I would tell you, because it’s, it’s so ingrained in us. And I say ingrained, it’s just, it’s because the way we think, the fact that we can think beyond the moment, we can plan ahead, but there’s so many variables.

Uh, you know, people act, people do things you wouldn’t think they do. The competition does things. It upsets your plan and how do you react? Um, I just, I’ve been shocked that when you read military history, this is really common. And it’s the failed military leaders who make these really, really. Deliberate, thick, you know, phone book, think, uh, phone book, thick plans for battle, realizing that once the enemy goes left, instead of going right, which they should have gone, oh, it’s off the window.

You got to restart over. And, uh, so you can see, you can see how that can just, not just affect the leader, And I say strength and chaos. It’s not just the leader has to be strong. It’s the team. The leader’s responsibility is making the team strong. Who cares if you’re an effective leader, if your team doesn’t perform, you lose.

So it’s almost a reorientation to your duty. It’s not you, the leader, your job’s not to be the rock star. It’s about making sure the team is the rock star, that they are capable of maneuvering, of acting on their own, on their own initiative, even against your directives, if the situation calls for. So, How do you do that?

And I know that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of, that’s a lot of discussions right there, but that’s really the essence. How can teams navigate and show initiative and adapt situations even if the leader’s not there?

[00:09:44] Anthony: Yeah. And it is a really interesting one. I mean, I was speaking to someone recently who, uh, is the leader of a, of a business and, uh, she’s getting married and she’s having a child and she’s like, how do I let go?

And we were having a chat about it. And, uh, you know, I actually challenged her. I said, right, you’re about, I think she was about six months along when we had this discussion. And I said, take three days off, see what happens. Turn your phone off. Like the word, give them a worst case scenario if they really need to get in contact with you, but just do it and see what happens.

And, and the business survived, um, and it’s going to thrive without her. So, which is, which is fantastic because she’s positioned it well, but I think the whole idea of leadership, I think is this is a, is a really difficult concept. I hear that term being thrown around. All the time. You know, I hear it from, from little kids, like from in school, you know, you’re going to be a leader, you’re going to be a great leader.

And it’s like, really, is everyone going to be a leader? I think it’s a term that has got muddied and lost as to what it actually means. So, so, so, and I think it’s important in what you’re talking about here. So how do you define leadership?

[00:10:55] Kevin: So I, I actually have a definition. And, uh, before, before I give a definition, I totally agree with you.

Leadership is great as, uh, it’s either a cult of character, a cult of celebrity, or it’s become a sacrosanct, as if it’s a religious, uh, you know, the leader, the shepherd. I see completely different. I see leadership as a role. And if you’re not fit for the role, then you shouldn’t be there. But it’s about actualizing, um, a vision, accomplishing a mission.

But my definition of leadership, um, I’m gonna say some, it’s one sentence but it’s four parts. It is the art and science of influencing others to actualize a vision in the most constructive manner practical. And all four of those, all four of those parts can be, uh, can actually be explored. But it, it, there’s a science in it’s a body of knowledge, 2, 000 years.

Uh, but it’s an art because each of us have different behavioral profiles and we stylize that art differently. It’s like you and I reading a book about sharks and, uh, we read a book about sharks and they say, Hey, your, your mission, our mission is to write, is to write a similar book. You and I could have the same education, uh, Anthony, and yet you and I will write differently because of our natural behaviors, our education, our experiences.

That’s that stylized application, application. I say it’s influence. Because the opposite of influence, as I write it, is obedience. You’re demanding compliance, meaning you don’t want people to think on their feet. You want them to pull levers, you know, to act mechanically. You’re like the chess master for a chessboard.

Well, guess what? When friction comes, when the fog of war comes, and your competitors start doing things that you don’t want them to do, or your people start leaving, your talent starts leaving, you gotta act. Your people have to act without you. And if they can’t act without you, uh, you. You’re dead in the water.

So you have to influence them. You have to, I hate this word motivate, you have to inspire them. You have to give them, you have to establish a kind of trust where they are willing to show discretionary effort to go above and beyond because they know you have their back to make those decisions on the ground that can affect the strategy.

Now how they do that, that’s a whole nother thing. But, and the big thing is really, it’s actualizing a vision. And I say this, it’s not accomplishing a mission or accomplishing a task. A vision is big and broad. You can have millions of tasks involved. You can have thousands of missions involved or maybe a couple missions, whatever.

But people know the general thing, what you’re going for, what success looks like. You are giving them the permission and you’re empowering them to act on their own. That, and that’s key here. You, if you, if people can’t act on their own, they’re waiting for you. If they’re waiting for you, the pressure is just going to increase, increase, increase, and that’s going to really cause what I call destructive chaos.

So, um, that’s a long definition, but I think I see why I did that. It’s a

[00:13:43] Anthony: really important one because I, you know, I’ve, I’ve, um, you know, felt this myself as well, that, that, Buying into a vision. It’s often given. I think that’s one of the things that, that happens a lot in business that, uh, it might be the leadership team.

It might just be an individual, uh, CEO or a business owner that sits down and works out the vision of the organization and they deliver it to the rest of the, to the rest of the company. And you just hope that they buy into it and they all just kind of nod their head and say, yes. Um, but it’s very different to them actually buying into it.

And I think if you don’t. Get those people right in the first place and have them attuned to your value, you know, to a shared set of values, then ultimately it’s not going to work no matter how great the people are individually at their jobs. And I know we’ve even experienced it as, as a, you know, as a small business myself that we recently sat down and reworked, uh, the vision.

And we’ve actually, our, our vision is really more or less summarized in one word. And, uh, the, the, the team has started to really. You know, buy into that. And I think that that makes it, it makes a huge difference because it is definitely that struggle of being able to take people along for the, for the ride, uh, that, that allows you then to then see if they will buy into it because that, you know, if they share the vision and they share your values, then leaving them alone should say, well, this, we know what we’ve got to be doing because we’re all on the same page.

[00:15:14] Kevin: Or if you’re, yes, I totally agree, man. You know, one of the examples, uh, I was debating putting in the book, I, I, I hadn’t, well, I have a hole in the book that I have to fill, but, uh, one of the examples I think of is Disney. Disney is just, uh, Disney is in level four destructive chaos. It is wrecking itself because, you know, 30 years ago, its vision, you know, to be is to, uh, I don’t know the exact vision.

Uh, I don’t remember what Walt Disney wrote, but in essence, it’s a family entertainment business. 40 years ago, if you would pull the nation, not, you know, both political parties, they hate each other, but 90 percent agree that is a family oriented business. And now, uh, modern day, half the country thinks that, you know, is a, is a place for, uh, adult entertainment to say that, uh, that vision is being wrecked.

So that vision exists. But the people have not been brought on to it or the people, the wrong people have been brought into it to subvert that vision. So that vision takes you down a certain highway. That’s what’s really important. And if you have a good vision, first of all, you got to know exactly who you are and what you’re really good at.

That kind of vision is just you in the future. Uh, but if you don’t, if you don’t do that hard work and the vision really means nothing could just fall apart. And that’s where the idea of control, if people feel like there are holes or opportunities, uh, in that organization, that things aren’t filled or things are unclear.

Oh, they’re going to fill them. They’re going to fill them with things that probably you don’t want. That’s why that vision statement really, really important, you know, not highfalutin, but something very simple that makes sense. This is who we are. This is what we’re really good at. And this is where we’re going to be in the future.

[00:16:45] Anthony: Yeah. And I think equally, uh, you know, in terms of leadership, then it’s not just your team that you’re taking along for the ride, your clients, they’re, they’re the people that ultimately you have to lead. Right.

[00:16:56] Kevin: Well, yeah, I mean, well, you’re partnering with your clients and your clients hopefully are working with you because they understand what you, what you stand for, you know, and if, and if, if I asked Joe over here or Sarah, what the vision of the company is or what company does, and they can’t answer that, uh, why would anybody work with me?

That just shows inner confusion.

[00:17:13] Anthony: I think so. I want to go to the second part of your, um, the title of the book, you know, um, that’s talking about, um, I get this right. Um, guiding, uh, so it’s guiding, it’s, it’s guiding. Give me, give me, give me the

[00:17:26] Kevin: right title. A Leader’s Guide to Mastering the Uncontrollable.

And the uncontrollable is both. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:17:34] Anthony: I was going to say that the, the mastering the uncontrollable, right. And I thought, what is really interesting about that is the, to me is the, is the uncontrollable bit. And I, and I have, I’m sure like you, you spend a lot of time, whether it’s reading books or attending seminars or, or, uh, having coaches and the like that.

Talk about really controlled scenarios. This is the, you know, this is how you have to do things, you know, and this is, this is the time that you have to do things and we’ll organize this into, you know, divide the year up into certain things and you do, you know, you follow this structure and, and I just sit there most of the time and go, yeah, that’s good in theory, but am I really at that?

Can I really afford to be at that? I, I, and, and I think that whole idea of uncontrollable is underestimated because every day is uncontrollable, right? How many of us walk into, into the start of the day and go, these are the three things I want to do to today. And you get to the end of the day and you go, I didn’t even look at that list.

What happened?

[00:18:40] Kevin: Well, you know, there’s, I think there’s a cultural reason. The fact that we’re in the West, especially in America, you know, we, we live on a system of scientific management for the past. So, you know, since 19, since 1900, uh, the whole, the progressive state here, there’s been a, there’s a, an underlying Premise that you can anticipate the future and think about this.

We know manufacturing the, uh, uh, car manufacturing, uh, uh, that’s car. But the fact that you have assembly lines that requires science that requires management. It’s about managing the process. And if we do a B and C, we know D and F will happen. That that that’s that is in the roots of our really of the West.

And yeah. You know, people get PhDs now, you know, you get a PhD for telling me how many feathers Napoleon had in his hat. It’s so minute, it’s so detailed, and there are borders. Only feathers, not, you know, I’m not studying lapels or his jacket, it’s just the feathers. It’s so minute. Uh, there’s so many mental restrictions and borders, it’s so cautious that when you tell people uncontrollable, no, no, you can’t say that.

That goes against literally our cultural DNA. And for a fact, you know, I mean, Anthony, how do you tell an engineer who has a PhD, who’s been in his company or been in the industry for 30 years? Uh, you know what? You really can’t control things. He’d be like, I’ve spent my whole life doing it, studying it.

You’re telling this person to go against his own personal belief system. So it’s extraordinarily hard. And so to get people to create flexible strategies, you have to put that kind of certainty in it that says, you know what? If this doesn’t happen, we’re going to go A. Or if this doesn’t happen, we’re going to go to B.

You got to put some kind of, uh, some kind of, uh, safety measures, control measures in there, in the planning, even in the philosophy that assures people that even Don’t go, uh, they go awry. We can still gain order. It’s not gonna be pretty. It’s not gonna be a single lane highway, but it’ll be a, a, a multi lane highway.

We’re at least going in the right direction. Um, I feel like I went on a tangent right there, but that is a really, really important point because there’s so many people here, especially in leadership studies, when you plan A, B, C, D, and E, well, you’re planning really is how do we start A? How do we get to F?

We may not get to B or C, but we got to get to F. How do we do that? And that’s where contingency planning comes in. You got to know the people you work with. Some people like the chaos, some people like the improvisation. Some people detest it. They want harmony, um, a methodical approach, very deliberate approach.

They live for that. How do you get those people to get comfortable moving forward with that sense of, uh, uh, uncontrollable factors?

[00:21:25] Anthony: Yeah, it’s, it is a, it is a hugely, um, interesting topic. And I think even taking it on a further, um, uh, you know, on that is that here we are in a world that is Utilizing AI and automation.

And, uh, in such a way that it’s trying to control everything. And the interesting thing about that is, is that if someone comes to you as a, as a business and you have a fully automated system and they want something that’s a little bit different. How do you deal with that? Because a little bit of risk.

Yeah. I mean, do you just go, well, they don’t fit into our very unique bubble. So goodbye, which creates opportunities, of course, for new businesses to come and find that, that space. Uh, I think it’s, uh, there’s become this reliance. on this idea. And it’s, it is in a sense, creating a chaos around it, isn’t it?

Because there are people that are just going, no, I don’t that, that I’m not going to respond to that very narrow idea that you are only giving me this choice. You know, uh,

[00:22:40] Kevin: the technology you speak of, it’s so fascinating because we live, we have so much information, so many capabilities at our hands right now, uh, we have so many opportunities.

But what happens is when you use AI, and not when you use AI, but when you over rely on AI or this technology, You’re, you’re eliminating risk. You’re, you’re subconsciously developing yourself to avoid risk. Well, guess what the uncontrollable is? Guess what chaos is? It’s about, you know, sometimes you got to make it up as you go.

What you got to do is prepare before you do that. I would tell you, historically, probably one of the most fascinating examples that goes to this story is, um, You should read, uh, for your audience, you should read about the American and German, uh, Army officers, their education during World War II. The Americans, Actually, I’m going to back up.

The Germans, which is so fascinating because of their geography, they’re surrounded by enemies. The Germans always believe that you have to win a war fast because we’re going to have, we’re going to have France on one side, Russia. We got to, we got to win, beat one opponent, the next and get it over with.

We can’t maintain a long war. So what they, what they says, you can’t plan for the future. There’s so many uncertain things, but what we do is we make up as we go. That’s why our smartest people, our smartest, go to the front. We’ve, we, and we elect them on character, not logic, not, uh, your, your GPA, but like the football player, the soccer player, the people who have the grit, who, who, who can go around, they can take the beating, keep moving.

They would take, they would, they would select those people as their officers because they knew they could improvise. They had to. The Americans, on the other hand, because we live in the industrial age, are smartest. We’re based on logic, GPAs, uh, you know, we think of the IT nerd, that was the, uh, the ideal officer and those people went to the rear because they would do signal, they would do communications, the things they enabled process that avoided risk.

So, uh, there’s a fantastic book for your audience called Command Culture, and you see how these people thought and how they planned. So, would, you wouldn’t be surprised then that when the Americans, even today, when, when, uh, officers or, or units would do, uh, like a war game, Americans take us a, a scenario.

You start here on Monday and end here on Wednesday, and it ends here on Wednesday noon, or midnight, and it’s just a slip scenario. And it made, like, a slice of a battle. The Germans, on the other hand, during World War II, when they trained officers, they would start a huge war game, go, the war starts, finish it.

Could take a day, could take two days, could take a week. But it was about it. You see, just the mental orientation it takes to accept that kind of risk. So that’s why in World War Two, uh, again, recent history and World War Two, the German army was, uh, one point, uh, they were outnumbered. 150 percent more effective than both the Americans and the British at every instance because they were able to adapt and improvise.

Except though, they lost the war because they didn’t like that whole thing about, uh, scientific management and managerial. They, they, all their leaders died in the front. Uh, they sent the best of the front and, uh, they couldn’t sustain, they couldn’t sustain A long competition. So those mindsets really, really, really affect how people act, how they plan, how, uh, you know, uh, really everything about the company, even the culture, you know, do you reward people for breaking rules or do you punish them?

[00:26:11] Anthony: Yeah, it’s, it’s a, it opens up a whole can of worms here and I wish we had a few hours to keep digesting this. Um, there are a couple of things that I wanted to, to, to touch on with that, because you talk a lot, you know, a lot around the, obviously your military influences is huge and, uh, and leadership in that way, and without getting into the politics particularly, but is the upcoming American election.

Uh, basically on one side, you’ve got chaos and on the other side, you’ve got, um, very controlled, um, because it needs to, it sort of needs to be because of who the person is. I mean, I, I just look at, you know, as an outside observer, um, that’s, is that, is, is that a fair way of describing the two different styles of leadership?

[00:27:01] Kevin: Uh, so I know what you’re asking and, uh, First of all, before I answer your question, when I say, uh, I measure chaos, I have a chaos model. There’s good constructive chaos and destructive chaos. Each, each, each constructive chaos is like eustress, uh, it’s like working out, uh, uh, destructive distress. It break it, it disintegrates the power of a team.

Level one, destructive chaos level one is called disunity. That’s where your team, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to work together. Uh, I knew this question would come up someday, uh, and I would say this. My book, you can find parallels, but my, I talk about teams, leaders and teams. The United States, our country is not a team.

We’re a group. Uh, I don’t care about my neighbors. I have my own goals in life. Uh, if California sank, I live in Arizona, if California sank, I wouldn’t care because I don’t like California. You can probably tell. Uh, to answer your question, both politicians. Leadership’s about control. It’s, it’s, it’s the different type of control.

Some leaders create chaos because they, they tighten control over the team because they fear that chaos is gonna, uh, things gonna roll, roll out a spin outta control. So they tighten, they tighten things around them. And by tighten them, tighten, tighten, uh, rules, restrictions, they dis power. Uh, they take away power.

The, um, from people. People are not, uh, they don’t feel free. to act on their own conscience, on their own accord. So they can go from what I call mechanical compliance. They just come in to, to, uh, collect a paycheck. Malicious. We’re like, Oh, you want to do that boss? Sure, I’ll do it for it. Cause I know that you can get fired for it.

Or deliberate resistance. That’s where the control is so bad that, uh, that people literally did sabotage and tried to destroy. So politically, what do I think? I don’t know, probably national divorce, you know, or a third, a third American revolution, you know, second was a civil war. So who knows? Yeah. We, we, we won’t get

[00:29:05] Anthony: into the politics of it all because that will take it all.

But it was just a, as I said, it’s just a, it’s an interesting It, we live in an interesting world at the moment where these different kinds of, of leadership, I think is, is there. And I think the, the, the stuff that you’re talking about, um, is very, there’s a shift I think that’s, that’s, um, or a divide at least between those different styles that’s existing and it’s not just in the U S it’s happening.

[00:29:29] Kevin: You know what I say? I, I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s different styles. I, I know what you’re saying about style, but I would say it’s different focuses. You know, um, over here, one party is about government control. The government has the final say in everything. And, uh, like that’s New York and California.

I mean, the government literally just steps in and, and, uh, interjects into individual rights. There are other states here that actually say, you know what, we, we, They say we want to control, but it’s minimal. It’s minimal to keep the government going and we want people to exert the rights and people get offended.

Oh, well, so it’s really two types of control, at least two different focuses. One is, you know, one is pro government. The other is pro right, pro individual liberty. And that really is, you know, Uh, I would say that the two, the focus. So when I say, you know, national divorce, if there is, you find like Texas, Florida, the states who are probably doing the best, more free market, they would probably work together.

Uh, and the more centralized, uh, New York. You know, no, uh, New York, California, you can on the, on the, on the coast. So, uh, it’s, it’s funny. You can see the different orientations, but you know, there probably are some lessons for, for, uh, for chaos, but luckily I wrote something that would keep me the hell out of that.

[00:30:43] Anthony: Yes. Okay. More into the, into the, uh, story. Small medium business, uh, area. That’s probably the safest space to be than in politics. Um, I wanted to just change tact a little bit for a moment because we, we, we touched on in the, in the beginning a little bit about your, your background and being in the military, but, but tell me what was the, what was the journey for you?

What was your, what was your childhood, uh, where, you know, what did your parents do? What was that kind of influence that happened? Because I’m gathering that, um, you didn’t, uh, you, you know, High school days, you weren’t necessarily picturing what you’re doing now.

[00:31:17] Kevin: You know, uh, when I was a kid, I always wanted to be a general and, and, uh, fight and battle.

Uh, I, you could probably tell I’m an intense guy. So I grew up in a deep south. I grew up in Georgia and Atlanta, and I, your audience may not hear it in my voice, but there’s certain words that I say like, because, you know, uh, and, and your life’s. People say cement. I call it cement. And, and where I grew up, every soda is called Coke.

Hey, Anthony, you want a Coke? Yeah. What do you want? I’ll take a Sprite. And so I grew up in the South, but, uh, uh, I, I was a four year, I wrestled in high school. I was about combative sports. I went to the Virginia Military Institute, which is basically West Point for the South. I was there. And this is interesting.

I was there when, uh, The Supreme Court made, uh, forces to have females come in. At school, 157 years of, uh, of all males. So I saw chaos from, uh, from the college days as a cadet assaulting the army. Um, I, I volunteered for the war. They sent me and, uh, I got to see amazing things. But after six years of active duty, I saved up like 50 grand.

I’m like, I’m done working for the man. I’m gonna work for myself. So I took a year off. I was, it was so great. I enjoyed myself. But then, uh, I had this idea about, hey, I love playing war games. I love philosophy. I love history. How about, uh, we use computer war gaming to help students learn about history?

And, and I explain, uh, to this, I explained this idea about having people come play the war games and learn things from it. Explain it to a family member, like I should go to colleges for this. And they said, hell no. Go to companies. They’ll pay big money for that. So that started my career with these companies.

And I, again, I, my best, my favorite client was LifeLock. I was with them with 200 million, they went to a billion. They used my strategy, my strategy template. And, uh, And I can, and I can tell you that the permission, but the war gaming, the experience, the learning of strategy and leadership on the pressure, it gets so fun.

It’s so intense that the first time I did is had a chief marketing officer punch a founder in the face. So, uh, so what happened is not only are my workshops, uh, uh, educational and you take that template to use it for your company. It’s also a vetting system because I get to play, uh, you might say the bad guy.

Uh, If I can have a group of 10 people and Anthony, you’re the VP of sales and you’ve missed two quarters, guess who brings it up? I do. I bring in front of everyone and you and I have a come to Jesus meeting in that. So, uh, the C, the chief executives who hire me, they love it because I get people on the train, I get people moving forward and usually we have one casualty per workshop.

Usually someone is, uh, removed because they don’t get on that train. So I love what I’m doing, uh, but, uh, I love chaos. I, I, you know, it’s such a fascinating story. In my book, I cover eight different historical examples going from the ancient Greeks to modern day, and I show you how each of these levels actually apply.

So there’s real universality to it. And that’s why I’m hoping, I’m hoping that this book could apply, could, um, support business owners, founders, uh, and even the military. I think, uh, I can imagine, uh, senior military colleges bringing this book in, because again, there is no book, uh, that measures chaos like that.

[00:34:31] Anthony: I’m really looking forward to reading the book and understanding, particularly, you know, we’ve hardly even had time to touch on the whole idea of measurement, um, of it. And it’s maybe something we’ve got to come back and have another crack at. Um, I want to, I want to ask you though, Um, particularly for the, for the, uh, small medium business owners that are out there listening to this gig, give me a, give me a tip or two for, for them.

What is it that, that, what, what are some of the things that they should change in the way they’re thinking, uh, to, you know, that, that, that is. going to attune them to this idea of that, that you’re, um, you’re putting across?

[00:35:09] Kevin: Well, if we’re talking about an experienced business owner, they know that, you know, no matter what strategy or plan you has, it usually goes right to hell.

Once you cross the finish line, uh, so many good, so many good people leave because there is no direction in order. Uh, the fact is that no, no matter the type of training you go through, Under current circumstances, nothing is preparing you for chaos. So what I would say is, if you really want to gain a competitive advantage in terms of execution, you have to learn how to create a professional team.

And I say team, I don’t mean company. I mean teams. Chaos is measured at the team level. That could be a business function like sales. It could be inside sales, outside sales, but you have to focus at a team level. Uh, Your people have to know how to, uh, uh, plan flexibly, how to put the right people in the right roles.

Uh, there, there are a lot of things that, uh, don’t come naturally. Just, you know, you’re in a leadership position. We should do this and this. Uh, I provide a roadmap. So I can say if you’re, if you’re interested in flexible planning, if you’re interested in getting competitive, competitive advantage, I can show you how to create the kind of culture, how to hire the right people, how to get the right people, how to put the right people in, uh, in the right teams.

And. How really to make sure that your team can, can pivot faster than your competitors, because believe it or not, there is an art and science to it. And, uh, that’s why I’d say there’s an art science to chaos. And if you’re looking for support, I can support you.

[00:36:36] Anthony: And, uh, on the subject of that, I mean, it’s not just the book.

I love the play on your, on your name and the, and give us the title of the, of the website because it’s a great play.

[00:36:46] Kevin: Oh, thank you. Black market leadership. And believe it or not, I got trademarked. I got it. Who the hell guessed that? I know. Black market leadership. And the book though, if you’re interested in the book, it’s called thechaosbook.

com. I got that too. Don’t ask me how. The gods were on my side, Anthony.

[00:37:00] Anthony: It must’ve done brilliantly because, uh, that is, uh, they, they’re both too good gets, but I, I, when I saw it, I went. Oh, wow. It’s just like, that’s, that’s a great name to get to, uh, to, to be able to play on, of course. So, um, uh, look, I love that.

And, and, uh, we’re going to put the links of course, into the, uh, into the show notes so people have an opportunity of how to get in contact with you. Uh, I feel like we could talk for hours and hours cause there’s so much to unpack. And as I said, I’d love to, uh, unpack that whole idea of, of measurement as well, because it is, it is.

Uh, and just as a bit of a tease, I think, I think measurement is such a difficult thing these days. And anyone that’s in marketing knows that, that measurement is ridiculous. Um, you know, I, I, I’m in the business of helping other people, uh, put podcasts out there. And we should also mention that you have an amazing podcast as well.

So we will also include a link to that one. Um, but. The, uh, the thing about it is, is people ask me about podcasts and they say, Oh, how do you, you know, measure it as a just amount of people that’s downloaded. No, it’s not because, um, there are so many other factors that, that come into the equation. We won’t go into that now, but that’s the thing, isn’t it?

That whole concept of how you measure anything is just a really difficult, um, really difficult idea. And we, we have this book called burning need to measure things in this day and age, uh, particularly social media, that instant, um, gratification that we want to get, how many people have liked us and that measures the degree of popularity.

And it’s not that simple, is it? And I imagine that, uh, that measuring things in terms of chaos is not a straightforward thing and something we, he’s going to take a bit of time to go into.

[00:38:42] Kevin: No, it’s the approximation. And if you’re looking for a score of, he is a 3. 7, you know, it’s not like that. It’s a, it’s a general field, but I tell you, it’s, it’s a big field.

And as long as you know, you’re, you’re somewhere around the right area, you can find out, but, you know, you can get, you can get a leg up just by having that. So, uh, And by the way, I got, I got, thank you so much for the podcast. Uh, I have an affinity for Australia. Uh, I think I told you my whole life I have owned Australian cattle dogs.

Uh, and by the way, the genesis of that when I was a kid, I watched Mad Max 2, Road Warrior, like that is a cool looking dog. So, uh, uh, we have Australian cattle dogs. I got one by my feet as I talk to you right now. So they’re, they’re, they’re interesting little. guys, uh, but man, uh, uh, I have an, I totally affinity for, uh, for that side of the world.

So I appreciate you reaching out and having this discussion with me.

[00:39:34] Anthony: Oh, look, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the program. And, uh, well, I hope you’ll come out to Australia and come and visit us, um, because, uh, it would be, it would be amazing to hear more about it. And maybe you’ll get a bit of a world tour with the, uh, with the release of the book.

I hope it’s, uh, it works out that way for you. Um, because, there’s so much to unpack.

[00:39:54] Kevin: I got to pet a kangaroo. I got to pet a kangaroo. You got to help me. I want to pet a kangaroo. Yes,

[00:40:01] Anthony: you’ve got to find the right, you’ve got to find the right ones. You don’t want to approach the ones that, uh, out in the wild that might, uh, engage you in some kind of battle.

That, that, that definitely is chaos. You don’t want to do those. They, they are strong. You’ll not, you’ll not end up in a good way. Um, but yes, there are some classic, uh, videos, uh, somewhere on YouTube. I remember years ago, someone, uh, a kid’s TV program and someone out there will, will put in a comment and a link.

Um, but, uh, there was a, I think he was dressed in a sumo style suit and took on a kangaroo and that was not pretty. So, um, it’s not something you want to do. All right. Well, okay. Kevin, again, thank you so much for being an amazing guest on the, on the Biz Bytes program. And we definitely want to have you back in the future.

So much, uh, great information for, for business leaders out there and, and, and I love what you have to say. So thank you for being a great guest.

[00:40:53] Kevin: Oh, thank you, sir. I really appreciate it. And great podcast. I look forward to listening to it and if I can ever do it again, uh, let’s, let’s talk more about chaos.

So thank you.